By Matt Heinz, President of Heinz Marketing
If you’re not already subscribed to Sales Pipeline Radio, or listening live every Thursday at 11:30 a.m. Pacific you can find the transcription and recording here on the blog every Monday morning. The show is less than 30 minutes long, fast-paced and full of actionable advice, best practices and more for B2B sales & marketing professionals.
We cover a wide range of topics, with a focus on sales development and inside sales priorities. You can subscribe right at Sales Pipeline Radio and/or listen to full recordings of past shows everywhere you listen to podcasts! Spotify, iTunes, Blubrry, Google Play, iHeartRADIO, or Stitcher
This time we have one of the most famous, one of the most, in my perspective, inspirational sales authors, speakers in the circuit today, Mike Weinberg, who is the author of New Sales Simplified and the new book Sales Truth. I’m calling this one Sales Truth: Blunt, No Nonsense Advice from Mike Weinberg
One of the things I’ve always really appreciated about his content and approach, is that it is no nonsense. It is no spin. It is direct to the truth. Plus, we talk some sports too!
Listen in and/or read the full transcript below:
I keep reading …everything in sales has changed and that nothing that used to work still works today. That’s the furthest thing from the truth I can imagine.
Matt: Welcome everyone to another episode of Sales Pipeline Radio. Thanks so much for joining us today. We’re going to get right into it today. I am really excited. He is off the road. He is home, yet to be determined and confirmed if he actually has the Stanley Cup in his living room right now, but we have one of the most famous, one of the most, in my perspective, inspirational sales authors, speakers in the circuit today, Mike Weinberg, who is the author of New Sales Simplified and the new book Sales Truth. Mike, thanks so much for joining us today.
Mike: You’re so generous with the introduction, I don’t want to stop. I just figured I’ll let you talk. I think that was the nicest anyone’s ever introduced me in my entire life.
Matt: Oh, well, you’re too kind. Well before we got recording here we were talking about the recent Stanley Cup win from your St. Louis Blues, which was fun to watch. As a lifelong Cubs fan who was raised not to root for the Cardinals, it’s hard not to root for St. Louis, hard not to root for the Blues and the story they had. That was pretty fun and I’m glad you’re able to spend the week at home.
I know you’re on the road all the time, and especially now, you’ve got a new book out, I think just literally last week called Sales Truth: Debunk the Myths. Apply Powerful Principles. Win More Sales. One of the things I’ve always really appreciated about your content and your approach, Mike, is that it is no nonsense. It is no spin. It is direct to the truth. I think this, as I mentioned in I think LinkedIn last week, your past two books that I read were fantastic. I think this is your best yet. Talk a little bit about the inspiration for this book and for just going right to the sales truth this time around.
Mike: Well, thank you for the kind words. It is fun in St. Louis right now. This city needed a win. We’ll take it. I’ll tell you, I watched more hockey in the last 30 days than I watched in the last 30 years.
Mike: I don’t even know anything about hockey. I’m still trying to figure out like what icing is, but my city is really excited, so I’m celebrating and all that. You said what was the inspiration? I don’t know if inspiration is the right word as more as righteous anger, possibly, and why I wrote this.
It’s going to sound weird, but the simplest way I can explain it is the motivation to write this book was that what I was reading online, particularly on LinkedIn, which I think can be a cesspool for sales advice, what I was reading online from supposed sales experts about what it takes to succeed in sales today was so contradictory and so different from what I see with my own eyes in companies where I consult and train and coach, that I thought I need to compare these two, because there’s this trend right now from the nouveau sales experts, right, and the self-proclaimed thought leaders of today that can be very popular. If you have a keyboard and you have an internet profile and you put out sales advice, you can get a lot of to like what you’re saying, even if that’s not trustworthy advice, right?
I keep reading, Matt, that everything in sales has changed and that nothing that used to work still works today. That’s the furthest thing from the truth I can imagine. The folks that I work with who have mastered the fundamentals, who are good at both traditional and new sales methodologies, those are the people that are kicking butt, that are the top producers. My inspiration was I felt like someone needed to set the record straight and go, wait a second. All this nonsense you’re reading online about what it takes to win today isn’t necessarily accurate. Let me debunk some of those myths and then share with you what I’m seeing with my own eyes that is working to take control of your funnel, to create your own opportunities, to own your sales process and stop getting commoditized. That’s what drove me to write the book.
Matt: I guess if you’ve got some new solution to sell, it’s in your vested interest to convince people that whatever exists, whatever the status quo is, no longer works, no longer applies. I, like you, have heard that everything is dead, that cold calling is dead, that direct mail is dead, that PR is dead. Someone tried to tell me that inbound marketing is dead. I was like a couple years ago, everyone said that everything but inbound marketing is dead. Now apparently inbound marketing is dead. I don’t know man. What is old is new again, and there are new platforms, there are new tools, there are new strategies and tactics that can help you. I think that if you go back to some of the fundamentals that I know you have espoused in all of your content and on stage and at the OutBound Conference, those fundamentals are pretty universal. I have a hard time believing that even 20, 50 years from now, you’re going to see a lot of deviation from the standards of sales that have always worked that will continue to help salespeople in the future.
Mike: Yeah, it’s confusing to me. I think people do have an agenda and some people are honest about it. You’ve got thousands of sales tool vendors, right, and it behooves them to have messaging along the lines, “If you don’t have my new tool and incorporate this in your process, you’re going to be left behind.” I’ll tell you, and I was just discussing this with another sales guru, the reality is I have never with my own eyes seen a sales team or a salesperson that was struggling or failing because they didn’t have the latest, greatest tool or process. They usually fail because they haven’t mastered the fundamentals, because they’re lazy, because they live in reactive mode, because they spend way too much time looking for some sales hack on LinkedIn, but they’re not failing because they don’t have the latest and greatest thing.
I definitely think there’s an agenda from people who obviously have new tools to sell. I would also say, at least in our space, there’s some people who like, let’s just use social selling as an example. Well, if they’re social selling trainers and they promise you that they’re going to digitally transform your sales effort, whatever the heck that means, they obviously have an angle and they’re trying to sell their social selling training to you. They like to make fun of the old stuff because if they know that works, that’s not going to help us sell what we’re doing. That’s, I think, where we get some mixed messages. It’s pretty transparent, if you ask me, about people that actually have an agenda.
I even wrote this in Sales Truth somewhere, that some people are so untethered to the truth because their own livelihood is tied to what they’re pitching you, that they can’t even have a rational argument with you about what’s working and what’s not because they can’t see clearly because they need what they’re promoting to succeed. It really puts you in a compromised position, honestly, if you’re giving out a lot of advice.
Matt: We’re talking to Mike Weinberg today on Sales Pipeline Radio. He’s a consultant, coach, speaker, bestselling author, most recently the book Sales Truth. I see all the time from people saying old school sales doesn’t work. On the marketing side, we have it as well. You see people that are “growth hackers,” where the intention is I am going to do something right now and I’m going to hack my marketing funnel and I’m going to hack demand. The commonality that I see across all of these. Look, I mean, like you said, there’s some well-meaning folks. There’s some great tools out there, but our interest in finding a shortcut is the part that I think concerns me the most. If you think you’re going to short circuit the buying process, if you think you’re going to trick a prospect into moving more quickly than they’re ready to go in the process, if you think that you are going to somehow find a sustainable, repeatable way of replacing consistency and hard work, I have a hard time believing that’s going to happen.
I see it all the time in marketing, right? I mean, we get calls from people and I’ve literally had someone tell me, “We’re not going to work with you because it looks like you’ve got a process that’s going to take awhile. We’re going to go hire a growth hacker instead.”
Mike: Oh my gosh.
Matt: Right? That mentality still exists that there’s going to be a shortcut and a way to get past sort of having to do the hard work or having to have the discipline and tenacity to do it right and do it in a sustainable way. I mean, Mike, I don’t know that that’s going to go away. I think it’s going to start to take different forms as people continue to look for something that’s faster, that doesn’t require the hard work.
Mike: Wow. I don’t even need to add a comment. Matt, that’s incredible to even hear people saying that and that you had a real company tell you, “Yeah, your process looks too sound.” I’m going to paraphrase what I heard. “You must be old and you’ve done this for a long time and know what works. We don’t want to use your tried and true process. We want some new thing that’s going to hack it and be 10x faster.” Here’s the deal, Matt. I’m fat because I like New York pizza. I eat too many carbs and don’t burn enough calories. There’s no magic bullet to fix that. I don’t care what they tell me on all the commercials, like I can’t eat all the carbs that I want and be the weight I want to be. Right? There’s something incongruous about that statement.
It’s the same thing with the people online, whether it’s marketing or sales, telling us, “You need this new thing and it’s going to be easy and if you would just tweet and blog and put out content and do this the right way, when buyers are 57% through their process, they’re going to come running to you with money in hand and say, ‘Come on, get engaged with me.’” That’s a fallacy and frankly that’s why people that preach what I preach have so much business because there’s a lot of hurting sales teams that are opportunity starved because they’ve been waiting around for these magic bullets to cash in and it’s not happening. It’s a sad situation.
Let me just transition to something here because it’s right on the same line of thinking. I included a chapter at the end of the book, I think it’s chapter 15. It’s me profiling the two highest performing sales people I’ve ever seen, two totally different guys, different personalities, completely unrelated industries, neither of which are my clients. I have no dog in the fight here, right? I didn’t coach these people. They were great before I met them. They’re both number one in the country, I mean make huge money, huge earners. The reason I included that chapter is because I wanted to strangely encourage salespeople that read this, that these top two people have no hacks, no shortcuts. They work their ass off and they’ve mastered the fundamentals and they do a ton of work preparing and practicing backstage so they’re ready when they’re front stage, going face to face with a prospect or a client.
They know their business. They know their competitors, they know their offerings, they know their customers, and they do the basics. They prepare, they practice, they present well. They follow through. They tell a great story and they have incredible work ethics. My message to the salespeople that read that or that are hearing us talk about it, you can emulate 90% of what those people do. They’re not freaks of nature. They never talk about sales tools. They don’t have any shortcuts. Stop looking for one. Get off of LinkedIn, stop listening to the experts making false promises and get to work because that’s what’s going to produce opportunities in your funnel. That’s what’s going to make you a top producer.
Matt: The elevator to success is broken. You have to take the stairs. I didn’t make that up. I don’t know where I heard that. I might have to attribute it to someone else. If anyone listening knows what that is, please send me an email. I would love to attribute to the right place, but I mean the point is you have to do the hard work and you not only have to do the fundamentals, but you can’t just do it today and then pick it up later like it is. You talk to some of the best sales people. I mean you talk to some of the best marketers and they come to work and put their hard hat on every day and they don’t take for granted the success they have. You do the fundamentals consistently and repeatedly and that’s how you succeed.
My dad, I don’t know if I told you this, my dad actually was a Caterpillar tractor salesman for 30 plus years. He worked for Caterpillar out of Peoria for awhile and then he went to a dealership in northern California where I was born. I watched him work extremely hard. I watched him come home every night with an armful of stuff. After dinner he’d be in the back living room doing work and getting ready for the next day. I also learned from him the importance of relationships. He would remember things about people. He would follow up, he would pay attention to the little things.
I feel like there’s been a little bit of a backtracking on the importance of relationships in sales. As we rightfully look at the challenge of sale and we look at insights and sort of reframing problems, like that’s all important. I feel like it’s been prone to the expense of hard work and relationships in sales. I’m curious to get your perspective on that. Looking at sort of hard work, putting in the time, being a relationship seller, being an insight and a challenger seller, are those things, can those things coexist? Is there a prioritization that you see around those? I’m curious to get your perspective.
Mike: Yeah. Wow. Yes, they can coexist. It’s not mutually exclusive. Relationships matter. Anthony Iannarino, our friend, says this all the time, “All things being equal, the guy with the relationship wins. All things not being equal, oftentimes the seller with the relationship still wins.” You can be in relationship with someone and still push back and argue to work your own process. Those are not mutually exclusive. You can challenge and reframe the situation and still be highly likable and remember the basics and be good at entertaining or actually care. They’re definitely not mutually exclusive. I will tell you that top people, particularly in businesses like your dad was in. I actually work with a big competitor to the company that your dad worked in. I’m in with the factory and I’m also in a lot of their dealerships. There’s plenty of people that have a lot of seniority in that world that are trusted experts and trusted advisors who go very deep in their customer organizations and it’s all relationship. It’s really hard to dislodge someone who’s in deep and has relationships with lots of stakeholders.
No, relationships are still hugely valuable. Where I caution people though is I also see under-performers who claim that it’s all about the relationship. They use that as an excuse to over-serve their favorite existing accounts almost to the point of babysitting. They’ll go out of their way to run a delivery out to a customer or to put out the customer service fire. It kind of feels good when they do that, because they know that they’re making their customer happy and they’re keeping the high retention and high customer satisfaction numbers, but I will tell you that I see a lot of highly relational salespeople who are weaker when it comes to hunting for new business. Because they always default to over-serving and babysitting favorite accounts, they often never get to the hard work of going to try to penetrate their really difficult customers that they don’t like, that maybe only give them 5% of the business, but you should have 50%. Then they never get around to prospecting, because why would I do that when I can run a part out or go see my friend, bring donuts or take them to a baseball game?
I’m all for the relationship, but I do want to caution the overly relational seller that uses that as a crutch to never find time to go do the hard work, seeing customers that you’re not in deeply with or prospects that don’t buy from you.
Matt: I would agree with that. One of my dad’s favorite jokes was, “It runs like a deer and smells like a John.” I always appreciated that joke growing up. I heard him sort of giving me a very audible sigh from the grave when this summer I just actually a couple months ago here in the spring, bought a John Deere lawn tractor, which I love, but I was fully justified because Caterpillar does not make a lawn tractor so I didn’t have an option of buying a CAT lawn tractor, so I’m fine there. Hey, we’re late for a little commercial break. We got to go pay some bills. We’re going to be back with more with Mike Weinberg, consultant, coach, speaker, author, especially of the new book, Sales Truth. We’re going to be talking about some of the arrogant attitudes that can exist in sales that sort of disrespect the way the buyer is proceeding and thinking about and educating themselves, that I think is keeping people from building more rapport. We’ll be right back with that and much more on Sales Pipeline Radio.
Matt: All right, welcome back to Sales Pipeline Radio. We’ve got a few more minutes here with one of my good friends, one of the best in the business, Mike Weinberg. His new book is Sales Truth. You can check it out at Amazon and wherever fine books are sold. Check out the airport as well. I mean you’re going to find good books from Mike, from some of his good friends in the sales space, Jeb Blount, Anthony Iannarino, Mark Hunter. Mike, you guys just finished just a couple months ago. This is the third or fourth OutBound Conference and every year it gets bigger. It’s kind of like a conference. It’s kind of like a rock show. I mean I haven’t had a chance to attend, but the videos look amazing. You guys have really created sort of a movement in the outbound space. Talk a little bit about kind of where that came from and how that has grown.
Mike: Yeah, tip of the cap to Jeb Blount and his passion for big show and just how to put something like that together. Anthony, I think it was his idea initially thinking, “There’s this conference called Inbound and Inbound is great, but we have a lot of clients that need help with outbound.” No one thought it would become the thing that it’s become. We had over 1000 people there in Atlanta back in April and it’s really fun. It’s a ton of work making it happen and selling tickets and getting people to be there, but oh my gosh. This year we had the four of us with Mark Hunter, Anthony and Jeb, and then we had some special guests including some legends, everyone from Jeffrey Gitomer to Victor Antonio who joined us.
It was a great experience. I will tell you for me, I don’t love the big stage. I do it. It’s fun to speak to 1000 people when you’re launching a book and make them laugh and tell some stories, but my fun came from the time in the hallway just talking to salespeople that were putting my content to use and just hearing how they were implementing some of the simple concepts from either New Sales. Simplified. or from Sales Management. Simplified. That was just hugely satisfying, but it’s really fun. It’s really big. I’m sure next year it will be even bigger, but I also was glad when it was over because I had to get home and launch this book and get back to my day job. It’s all good.
Matt: That’s awesome. Well, I mean, speaking of the book, definitely check it out on Amazon.com. You can also go to MikeWeinberg.com, learn more about all of his books, learn more about Mike, and I’d highly encourage you to sign up for his Insider Insight newsletter. You can get his content on a regular basis and definitely learn more about the next OutBound Conference coming up next year. It will definitely be bigger and I’m looking forward to it.
In the book there’s so many things, and I know we’re going to run out of time here, there’s so many things we could talk about. One of my favorite chapters of the book, the headline says, “Would you trust a doctor who wrote a prescription before examining you?” It made me think about so many things. It made me think about the sales reps who follow up with leads with some version of, “Thanks for downloading the white paper. Would you like to see a demo,” the sales rep that thinks they know more about the prospect’s business than they know themselves, without asking any questions, without really doing any discovery. Talk a little bit about that analogy and what lessons and cautions it has for modern salespeople.
Mike: Well, I don’t want to talk. I want you to keep going because I’m getting angry just listening to you. Demo first and arrogance and all that, that’s just a terrible sin today, especially in the tech world. I don’t know how you think you can be viewed as a consultant and a value creator and a trusted advisor if you walk in in demo mode, pitch mode or presentation mode. Right? I do tell the story in the book, I use this little analogy about going to a doctor. I said, just imagine that you’re going to a physician because something’s wrong with you and you’re not really sure what it is. You go to see this new doctor. She walks in the room after you wait for her for a long time, right? She comes in and closes the door and then for 10 minutes she tells you about her specialty and her education and where she did residency and all about her angle on medicine.
Then for the next 10 minutes, she pulls out this wonder drug and tells you about the clinical trials and all the benefits from taking this drug. Then she grabs the prescription pad and says, “I really want you to take this. You need this drug.” I mean, Matt, if that happened to you in a doctor’s office, you’d run out of there as fast as humanly possible. That is absolutely malpractice to write a prescription without doing a diagnosis. Right? This woman was convinced that she had the right drug for you. How can you trust someone who walks in and doesn’t diagnose, doesn’t examine, doesn’t do discovery?
I would say the same thing as true in sales. People laugh when I tell that story or that analogy, but do you know how many salespeople I watch that walk in and they’re ready to open the projector and get into the demo. I’m like, well, how are you going to tie that demo to the customer’s business issues if you haven’t done any discovery and you didn’t meet with any stakeholders ahead of time? Yeah, I get that you have some generic research, but come on, that’s not fair.
I think it’s impossible to set yourself apart if you walk in in pitch mode. I think you’re basically guaranteeing yourself to being viewed as a vendor and a pitch man or a pitch woman, because that’s wrong. I mean, presentation before doing discovery is sales malpractice, period, end of story. I don’t care what your marketing people say. I don’t care if the product people at your tech company are being bonused on how many demos you do. That’s just plain stupid.
Matt: I would agree. Again, it just kind of goes back to I think many of these roads go back to just not only just doing the hard work and fundamentals, but just understanding and respecting your customer, understanding what they care about, focusing on their story. I had someone tell me once, they said, “The best sales processes in the world spend as much time and as deep into the sales process as possible before you start talking about yourself, before you start talking about your product and service.” You earn the trust and credibility of your prospect by sharing insights that make that customer better, that make them want to spend more time with you. Just got a couple more minutes here with Mike Weinberg, wrapping up with Mike who’s the author of Sales Truth. You can definitely check it out. Make sure you get a copy of that on Amazon.com and wherever fine books are sold. One of the things we have in common is we both have three children. Mine are a little younger. I think like you are, I think, about to become an actual empty nester. Your youngest is going to school this fall.
Mike: You’re right. He’s actually just there. I need to update some online profiles, but yeah, we have all three kids out and it is a definite change of pace. It’s a joy. Matt, I’ve enjoyed every phase of parenting and so has my wife. I loved when they were little, I loved when they were kids, loved when they were teenagers and now having these young adults, you’re still parenting. I mean I’m having lots of conversations, but it’s more coaching and question asking than directing.
Matt: Have any of them looked at what you’ve done in your career, sort of as a sales leader, as a salesperson, as someone who’s so passionate about sales, have any of them expressed interest in going into sales? Have you talked to them about that? It sounds like they’re all studying a wide variety of different things in school right now, but how much have you guys had that conversation?
Mike: Yeah, no, absolutely. None of them seem to have that bent, and honestly it’s just fine with me. My oldest is more relational and more a kind of servant hearted and data-driven, and he’s got a great job at Edward Jones and their program coming out of school. Then my middle child is doing architecture at a great program and she’s got lots of gifts that I’m never going to have, and good for her. She wants to do a whole lot of stuff with poverty and make inner cities beautiful, and good for her. My little guy is studying business at Purdue and he’s got kind of an analytical bent and we’ll see where that ends up. I think they were amused at me and these books and what I share with them and they tolerate me, but no, it doesn’t seem to interest them too much.
Matt: This past weekend, of course, was Father’s Day as we’re recording this. Our kids are 10, 8 and almost 6. They’re doing the thing, like the youngest kids come home with the little questionnaire they filled out. My six year old, he’s just finishing kindergarten and they’re asking, “What does your daddy do? What’s his job?” I’m not a fireman. What the heck does daddy do? Basically his answer was, “Daddy types and talks on the phone,” which pretty darn close to the truth when you sort add up the observation.
Mike: That’s awesome.
Matt: I’ll take it. Well, hey, we only got a couple more minutes here. I know you’ve got to run. The last question we always ask guests is, I know you are a sort of a lifelong student learner, you’re always reading and learning. Who are some people that stand out for you in your career? These can be sort of authors, mentors, they can be alive or dead, some people that have had really a lot of influence for you in your career that you might recommend
Mike: Oh my goodness. I’ll give you a couple and I’m going to stay out of my own industry because I love everyone that writes the sales stuff. Everyone has got a good book I’m interested in. Michael Hyatt has been influential to me the last few years on productivity. Cal Newport, his book, Deep Work, was hugely convicting about the mental wrecks we’ve become, suffering from beyond ADD, just the inability to focus because we’re totally addicted to our smartphones and interruptions. Cal Newport and Michael Hyatt in the last year or two have been very influential. Jon Gordon, he’s like Mr. Positivity and he’s got incredible books. The Energy Bus, I mean really simple concept. It’s like an allegory and it helps you really understand the blessings you have in your life and how to be positive and say things like, “I get to,” instead of, “I have to,” and just really understanding your purpose and having joy in the journey even when you’re working really hard. Those are three names that I never would have thought I’d be sharing a couple of years ago, Michael Hyatt, Jon Gordon and Cal Newport. How’s that?
Matt: That’s phenomenal. That’s maybe the best list I’ve heard in a while. You dug deep. That’s really good. Well, okay, last, last question. Now we’re both big baseball fans. I’m a Cubs fan. You’re a Cardinals fan. We won’t get into the rivalry. It’s great to see the Blues won their first Stanley Cup ever. The Cardinals are in contention every year. I mean, it’s such an impressive organization to watch over the years. As we record this, 3 games above 500. We’re a couple of weeks away from the trade deadline. I assume you’re thinking the Cardinals are buyers. What do you think they need for the stretch round?
Mike: I think they’re buyers. They may stand pat. It’s a very inconsistent performing team right now full of wonderful personalities and this great new baseball nerd manager from last year that has really turned this team around. I don’t know. I would think they’re buyers, but it’s hard because it’s almost like they have too many players in some positions. I don’t really know where they would go. Maybe a great starting picture would be a neat addition. It is fun. The rivalry with the Cubs, Matt, I don’t know if you know this, if you guys spent any time in Chicago, but I can say this coming from New York, I’ve lived here 25 years, but everyone in St. Louis has an inferiority complex about the city of Chicago. Forever, the only thing we could always say that St. Louis had over Chicago was the Cardinals were always better than the Cubs.
We would count the World Series. I’ve got to tell you, the last few years, this city has been in depression between losing the Rams and then the Cubs being better than the Cardinals the last three years and winning a World Series. It’s very hard for people in this city to stomach. I’m amused by the rivalry because I’m not from here, but I love watching both those teams. One of my favorite players in baseball is Anthony Rizzo. I mean talk about high character, high fun, high talent, high competency. I mean I think he’s just a stud. I mean I am a huge fan.
Matt: I agree. I agree. I think the Cardinals over the years have had some just amazing, just really strong players but also good character guys. I don’t know, I mean this year, I mean you look at the standings in the Central, you’ve got three teams, the Brewers, Cubs and Cardinals within two and a half games of each other. I think it could be the only real competitive race in the National League, but rivalries aside, it’s fun to watch the pennant race. It’s going to be fun to as we get closer to the football season as well, but anyway, we are out of time today. I want to thank our guest, Mike Weinberg. Thanks for being so generous with your time. Everyone, go check out the book Sales Truth. If you are in sales, you should be reading this book. If you are in marketing, you’ve heard me say this before, if you’re in marketing, you should be reading sales books. One of the best is Mike Weinberg. Well, we’re out of time today. We will be back next week with more. This is Matt Heinz. Thanks for joining me again on Sales Pipeline Radio.